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BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF COOK COUNTY,
September, A.D. 1920, Term.
In the Matter of the )
)
Investigation of Alleged )
)
Baseball Scandal. )
September 28, 1920
1.00 o?clock P.M.
Present: Mr. Hartley L. Replogle, Assistant State?s Attorney,
on behalf of The People.
Hon. Charles A. McDonald, Chief Justice
of the Criminal Court.
BASEBALL INQUIRY Tuesday, September 10, 2002
GRAND JURY 3:00 o?clock, P.M.
JOE JACKSON,
called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY
Mr. Replogle
Q Mr. Jackson, you do understand that any testimony you may give here can be used in evidence against you at any future trial; you know who I am, I am State?s Attorney, and this is the Grand Jury, this is the Foreman of the Grand Jury. Now I will read this immunity waiver to you so you will know just what it is:
?Chicago, Illinois, September 28, 1920. I, Joe Jackson, the undersigned, of my own free will make this my voluntary statement and me willing to testify and do testify before the Grand Jury with full knowledge of all the facts and of my legal rights, knowing full well that any testimony I may give might incriminate me and might be used against me in any case of prosecution or connected with the subject matter of my testimony, and now having been fully advised as to my legal rights, I hereby with said full knowledge waive all immunity that I might claim by reason of my appearing before the Grand Jury and giving testimony concerning certain crimes of which I have knowledge.
(Whereupon the witness signed the foregoing document)
Q What is your name?
A Joe Jackson.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Jackson?
A You mean in the City here?
Q Where is your home?
A Greenville, South Carolina.
Q What is your business?
A Baseball player
Q How long have you been playing professional baseball?
A Since 1908.
Q Where have you played professional baseball?
A Why, I started out in Greenville, South Carolina; went there to Philadelphia, Philadelphia Americans.
Q How long were you with them?
A I went in the fall of 1908, and went to Savannah, Georgia.
Q How long were you there?
A Finished the season there, and I was called back by the Athletics; from there went to New Orleans, in 1910; 1910 in the fall I came to Cleveland and stayed with Cleveland until 1915, and I have been here ever since.
Q Did
you play with the White Sox from 1915?
A About
the middle of the season I was there.
Q Are
you married or single?
A Married
Q How
long have you been married?
A Been
married thirteen years this coming July.
Q Have
any children?
A No,
sir.
Q Is
your wife in Chicago at the present time?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Where
is your Chicago address?
A Trenier
Hotel, 40th and Grand Blvd.
Q You
were playing professional ball with the
White Sox in the season of 1919, were you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q You
played in the World Series between the Chicago
Americans Baseball Club and the Cincinnati
Baseball club, did you?
A I
did.
Q What
position did you play?
A Left
field.
Q Were
you present at a meeting at the Ansonia
Hotel in New York about two or three weeks
before ? a conference there with a
number of ball players?
A I
was not, no, sir.
Q Did
anybody pay you any money to help throw
that series in favor of Cincinnati?
A They
did.
Q How
much did they pay?
A They
promised me $20,000 and paid me five.
Q Who
promised you the twenty thousand?
A ?Chick?
Gandil.
Q Who
is Chick
Gandil?
A He
was their first baseman on the White Sox
club.
Q Who
paid you the $5,000?
A Lefty
Williams brought it in my room and threw
it down.
Q Who
is Lefty
Williams?
A The
pitcher on the White Sox club.
Q Where
did he bring it, where is your room?
A At
the time I was staying at the Lexington
Hotel, I believe it is.
Q On
21st and Michigan?
A 22nd
and Michigan, yes.
Q Who
was in the room at the time?
A Lefty
and myself, I was there, and he came in.
Q Where
was Mrs. Jackson?
A Mrs.
Jackson ? let me see ? I think she
was in the bathroom. It was suite;
yes, she was in the bathroom, I am pretty
sure.
Q Does
she know that you got $5,000 for helping
throw these games?
A She
did that night, yes.
Q You
said you told Mrs. Jackson that evening?
A Did,
yes.
Q What
did she say about it?
A She
said she thought it was an awful thing to
do.
Q When
was it that this money was brought to your
room and that you talked to Mrs. Jackson?
A It
was the second trip to Cincinnati. That
night we were leaving.
Q That
was after the fourth game?
A I
believe it was, yes.
Q Refreshing
your recollection, the first two games that
you remember were played in Cincinnati?
A Yes,
sir.
Q And
the second two were played here?
A Yes.
Q This
was after four games?
A Yes,
sir.
Q You
were going back to Cincinnati?
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
time of day was that he came to your rooms?
A It
was between, I would say, 7 and 8 o?clock
in the evening, right after the game.
Q After
the fourth game? Do you remember who
won that game?
A Dick
Kerr, I believe.
Q Cincinnati
won that game. Cicotte pitched and
Cincinnati won; do you remember now? Cincinnati
beat you 2 to nothing?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Were
you at a conference of these men, these
players on the Sox team, at the Warner Hotel
sometime previous to then?
A No,
sir, I was not present, but I knew they
had the meeting, so I was told.
Q Who
told you?
A Williams.
Q Who
else talked to you about this besides Claude
Williams?
A Claude
didn?t talk to me direct about it, he just
told me things that had been said.
Q What
did he tell you?
A He
told me about this meeting in particular,
he said the gang was there, and this fellow
Attel, Abe Attel, I believe, and Bill Burns
is the man that give him the double crossing,
so Gandil told me.
Q You
say Abe Attel and Bill Burns are the two
people that Claude
Williams told you gave you the
double cross?
A Chick
Gandil told me that.
Q Then
you talked to Chick
Gandil and Claude
Williams both about this?
A Talked
to Claude
Williams about it, yes, and Gandil
more so, because he is the man that promised
me this stuff.
Q How
much did he promise you?
A $20,000
if I would take part.
Q And
you said you would?
A Yes,
sir.
Q When
did he promise you the $20,000?
A It
was to be paid after each game.
Q How
much?
A Split
it up some way, I don?t know just how much
it amounts to, but during the series it
would amount to $20,000. Finally Williams
brought me this $5,000, threw it down.
Q What
did you say to Williams when he threw down
the $5,000?
A I
asked him what the hell had come off here.
Q What
did he say?
A He
said Gandil said we all got a screw through
Abe Attel. Gandill said that we got
double crossed through Abe Attel, he got
the money and refused toturn it over to
him. I don?t think Gandil was crossed
as much as he crossed us.
Q You
think Gandil may have gotten the money and
held it from you, is that right?
A That?s
what I think, I think he kept the majority
of it.
Q What
did you do then?
A I
went to him and asked him what was the matter.
He said Abe Attel game him the jazzing.
He said, ?Take that or let it alone.?
As quick as the series was over I
left town, I went right on out.
Q Did
you ever meet Abe Attel?
A Not
to my knowledge, no sir. I wouldn?t
know him if I would see him.
Q Did
you ever meet Bill
Burns?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Where
did you first meet Bill
Burns?
A When
I first came to the American League to play
ball I first met him.
Q Where
was he then?
A He
was at Detroit when I met him.
Q Do
you know whether or not he was in on this
deal?
A Well,
I know what Gandil told me, that he and
Attel was man that ?
Q Bill
Burns and Abe Attel?
A Yes.
Q Were
the men that what?
A And
some other gentlemen, I can?t recall their
names. There was three of them.
Q A
Jewish name, if you know, would you know
it if you were to hear it?
A No,
sir, I would not.
Q Do
you know whether or not Gideon of St. Louis
was in on this in any way?
A No,
sir, I only know he was with Risburg and
McMullin all the time.
Q Whom,
Gideon?
A That?s
all I know. I seen him around with
them.
Q What
is his first name?
A Joe.
Q Joe
Gideon? Do you know whether or not
Rawlins of the Philadelphia National League
Club was in on this in any way?
A No,
sir, I do not.
Q You
know Rawlins?
A I
only know him by name.
Q You
know Gideon?
A Yes.
Q Where
did you see McMullin and Risburg together?
A In
Cincinnati one night in the smoking room
of a Pullman car.
Q Where
else?
A And
I saw them on the street together in Cincinnati.
I didn?t see them in Chicago here,
because I didn?t live in that neighborhood,
though I would see Joe at the ball grounds.
Q You
saw Gideon?
A Yes.
Q At
the ball park during the World?s series?
A Yes,
I saw him here one day, I saw him in here.
Q And
you were to be paid $5,000 after each game,
is that right?
A Well,
Attel was supposed to give the $100,000.
It was to be split up, paid to him,
I believe, and $15,000 a day or something
like that, after each game.
Q That
is to Gandil?
A Yes.
Q At
the end of the first game you didn?t get
any money, did you?
A No,
I did not, no, sir.
Q Then
you went ahead and throw the second game,
thinking you would get it then, is that
right?
A We
went ahead and threw the second game, we
went after him again. I said to him,
?What are you going to do?? ?Everything
is all right,? he says, ?What the hell is
the matter??
Q After
the third game what did you say to him?
A After
the third game I says, ?Somebody is getting
a nice little jazz, everybody is crossed.?
He said, ?Well, Abe Attel and Bill
Burns had crossed him,? that is
what he said to me.
Q He
said Abe Attel and Bill
Burns had crossed him?
A Yes,
sir.
Q After
throwing the fourth game, did you talk to
him then before Williams brought you the
money?
A No,
sir; I didn?t talk to him then, no, sir.
Williams and I talked.
Q Who
was your best chum on the team, who did
you go with in the club?
A Williams
and Lind. I hardly ever pal with any
of them there except those two.
Q Who
did Gandil pal with mostly on the team?
A Risburg.
Q Who
did McMullin pal with mostly on the team?
A I
cannot recall who McMullin roomed with.
Q Who
did he go with?
A You
would see him and Charlie together, and
Chick, quite a bit.
Q Chick
Gandil and Charlie
Risburg?
A All
times, not only on this occasion.
Q Do
you know who was the first man that the
gamblers approached, that Burnes and Attel
approached on your team?
A Why,
Gandil
Q What
makes you think Gandil?
A Well,
he was the whole works of it, the instigator
of it, the fellow that mentioned it to me.
He told me that I could take it or
let it go, they were going through with
it.
Q Didn?t
you think it was the right thing for you
to go and tell Cominkey about it?
A I
did tell them once, ?I am not going to be
in it.? I will just get out of that
altogether
Q Who
did you tell that to
A Chick
Gandil
Q What
did he say?
A He
said I was into it already and I might as
well stay in. I said, ?I can got o
the boss and have every damn one of you
pulled out of the limelight.? He said,
?It wouldn?t be well for me if I did that.?
Q Gandil
said to you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
did you say?
A Well,
I told him any time they wanted to have
me knocked off, to have me knocked off.
Q What
did he say?
A Just
laughed.
Q When
did that conversation take place, that you
said anytime they wanted to have you knocked
off, to have you knocked off.
A That
was the fourth game, the fifth night going
back to Cincinnati. I met Chick
Gandil and his wife going to the
12th Street Station. They got out
of the cab there. I was standing on
the corner.
Q Do
you recall the fourth game that Cicotte
pitched?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you see any fake plays made by yourself
or anybody on that game, that would help
throw the game?
A Only
the wildness of Cicotte.
Q What
was that?
A Hitting
a batter, that is the only thing that told
me they were going through with it.
Q Did
you make any intentional errors yourself
that day?
A No,
sir, not during the whole series.
Q Did
you bay to win?
A Yes.
Q And
run the bases to win?
A Yes,
sir.
Q and
fielded the balls at the outfield to win?
A I
did.
Q Did
you ever hear anyone accusing Cicotte of
crossing the signals that were given to
him by Schalk?
A No,
sir, I did not.
Q Do
you know whether or not any of those signals
were crossed by Cicotte?
A No,
sir, I couldn?t say.
Q After
the fourth game you went to Cincinnati and
you had the $5,000, is that right?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Where
did you put the $5,000, did you put it in
the bank or keep it on your person?
A I
put it in my pocket.
Q What
denominations, in silver or bills?
A In
bills.
Q How
big were the bills?
A Some
hundreds, mostly fifties.
Q What
did Mrs. Jackson say about it after she
found it out again?
A She
felt awful bad about it, cried about it
a while.
Q Did
it ever occur to you to tell about this
before this?
A Yes,
where I offered to come here last fall in
the investigation, I would have told it
last fall if they would have brought me
in.
Q And
you are telling me this now, of course,
of your own free will, you want to tell
the truth, is that the idea, of all you
know?
A Yes,
sir.
Q In
the second game, did you see any plays made
by any of those fellows that would lead
you to believe that they were trying to
throw the game, that is the game that Claude
Williams pitched with Cincinnati?
A There
was wildness, too, that cost that game.
Two walks, I think, and a triple by
this fellow, two or three men out.
Q Was
there any other move that would lead you
to believe they were throwing the game?
A No,
sir, I didn?t see any plays that I thought
was throwing the game.
Q In
the third game Kerr pitched three, 1 to
nothing. Did you see anything there
that would lead you to believe anyone was
trying to throw the game?
A No,
sir. I think if you would look that
record up, I drove in two and hit one.
Q You
made a home run, didn?t you?
A That
was in the last game here.
Q The
fourth game Cicotte pitched again? It
was played out here in Chicago and Chicago
lost it 2 to nothing? Do you remember
that?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you see anything wrong about that game that
would lead you to believe there was an intentional
fixing?
A The
only thing that I was sore about that game,
the throw I made to the plate, Cicotte tried
to intercept it.
Q It
would have gone to the first base if he
had not intercepted it?
A Yes.
Q Did
you do anything to throw those games?
A No,
sir.
Q Any
game in the series?
A Not
a one. I didn?t have an error or make
no misplay.
Q Supposing
the White Sox would have won this series,
the World?s Series, what would have done
then with the $5,000?
A I
guess I would have kept it, that was all
I could do. I tried to win all the
time.
Q To
keep on with these games, the fifth game,
did you see anything wrong with that or
any of the games, did you see any plays
that you would say might have been made
to throw that particular game?
A Well,
I only saw one play in the whole series,
I don?t remember what game it was in, either,
it was in Cincinnati.
Q Who
made it?
A Charles
Risburg.
Q What
was that?
A It
looked like a perfect double play. And
he only gets one, gets the ball and runs
over to the bag with it in place of throwing
it in front of the bag.
Q After
the series were all over, did you have any
talk with any of these men?
A No,
sir, I left the next night.
Q Where
did you go?
A Savannah,
Georgia.
Q Weren?t
you very much peeved that you only got $5,000
and you expected to get twenty?
A No,
I was ashamed of myself.
Q Have
you ever talked with Chick
Gandil since that time?
A No,
I never saw him since.
Q When
was the last time you saw him and talked
to him?
A It
was on the following morning after the series
were over, that day in Comiskey?s office,
waiting in there.
Q What
did you say to him at that time?
A I
told him there was a hell of a lot of scandal
going around for what had happened. He
said, ?To hell with it.? He was about
half drunk. I went on out and left
that night.
Q Did
you drink much Mr. Jackson?
A Now
and then, I don?t make no regular practice
of it.
Q Do
you get drunk?
A No,
sir.
Q Have
you been drunk since you have been with
the Chicago White Sox team?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Where?
A Atlantic
City.
Q You
were not playing ?
A Off
days.
Q Did
Mr. Comiskey or Mr. Gleason know you were
drunk at that time?
A I
don?t judge they did, no, sir
Q Who
was with you when you got drunk?
A Claude
Williams, John Fownier and myself.
Q That
is some years ago, he played with the Chicago
team, is that right?
A I
think it was ?18
Q You
haven?t been drunk since you played with
the Chicago team.
A Not
what you would call drunk, no.
Q Did
you ever talk to Happy
Felsch since that time, about those
games?
A I
believe I mentioned it to Happy the other
day, too; Yes, I know I did.
Q What
did you say to him?
A I
told him they would have him down before
the Grand Jury before long, the way things
looked.
Q What
did he say?
A He
said, ?All right.?
Q What
day was that, Mr. Jackson?
A I
don?t remember what day it was, but one
day last week.
Q Were
you playing ball?
A We
were walking across the field, yes, sir.
Just before practice, I believe, and
we were taking our position for practice
that day.
Q Do
you know whether or not Happy
Felsch received some of this money?
A I
don?t know that he received any more than
what the boys said.
Q What
did the boys say about him?
A They
said each fellow got some money.
Q Did
they say how much?
A $5,000,
I understand, Felsch.
Q You
wouldn?t say that any one got more than
$5,000; in other words, if I was to tell
you one man got $10,000, you wouldn?t doubt
it, would you; you don?t know?
A Yes,
I know the man you would refer to.
Q Do
you know how much he got?
A I
know what he said.
Q Do
you know how much he said he got?
A $10,000
Q Who
do you think I mean, then?
A Eddie
Cicotte.
Q When
did Eddie
Cicotte tell you he got $10,000.
A The
next morning after the meeting we had in
his room.
Q Did
you tell him how much you got?
A I
did.
Q What
did you tell him?
A I
told him I got five thousand.
Q What
did he say?
A He
said I was a God damn fool for not getting
it in my hand like he did.
Q What
did he mean by that?
A I
don?t know, that he wouldn?t trust anybody,
I guess.
Q What
did he mean, that?s what he meant by it?
A Why,
he meant he would not trust them, they had
to pay him before he did anything.
Q He
meant then you ought to have got your money
before you played, is that it?
A Yes,
that?s it.
Q Did
you have a talk with any of the other players
about how much they got?
A I
understand McMullen got five and Risburg
five thousand, that?s the way I understand.
Q How
do you understand that?
A Just
by talking to different fellows.
Q To
whom?
A Different
fellows.
Q Did
you talk to McMullen himself?
A Very
little I never talked to Mac any more than
just hello and go on.
Q Did
you ever ask him how much he got?
A Yes
Q What
did he say?
A Never
made me any answer, walked right out.
Q Did
you ever ask Charlie how much he got?
A Yes.
Q What
did he say?
A Asked
me how much I got.
Q What
did you tell him?
A Told
him.
Q What
did you tell him?
A I
told him I got $5,000.
Q What
did he say?
A He
said, ?I guess that?s all I got.?
Q Did
you believe him at the time?
A No,
sir, I think he was telling a damn lie.
Q What?
A I
think he was lying.
Q Did
you tell him at the time he said it he was
lying?
A Yes.
Q You
thought he was lying even at that time,
did you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q When
was that time?
A That
was this spring. We were talking in
Memphis, he and I were taking a walk.
Q On
your training trip?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you ever talk to anybody else how much they
got?
A No
sir, I didn?t.
Q You
never asked Williams how much he got?
A Williams,
I have, yes.
Q What
did he say?
A He
said he got $5,000 at that time.
Q You
think he gave you the truth?
A No,
sir, I do not.
Q What
do you say?
A No,
I did not.
Q What
do you think?
A I
think that those fellers cut it up to suit
themselves, what little they did have.
Q Who
is that
A The
gang
Q What
gang?
A Charlie.
Q Charlie
Risburg?
A Yes.
Q Who
else?
A McMullen
and Williams.
Q Who
else?
A Cicotte,
they were gambling.
Q Weren?t
you in on the inner circle?
A No,
I never was with them, no, sir. It
was mentioned to me in Boston. As
I told you before, they asked me what would
I consider, $10,000? And I said no,
then they offered me twenty.
Q Who
mentioned it first to you
A Gandil.
Q Who
was with you?
A We
were all alone.
Q What
did he say?
A He
asked me would I consider $10,000 to frame
up something and I asked him frame what?
And he told me and I said no.
Q What
did he say?
A Just
walked away from me, and when I returned
here to Chicago he told me that he would
give me twenty and I said no again, and
on the bridge where you go into the club
house he told me I could either take it
or let it alone, they were going through.
Q What
did they say?
A They
said, ?You might as well say yes or say
no and play ball or anything you want.?
I told them I would take their word.
Q What
else did you say?
A Nothing.
Q Did
you talk to anyone else about it?
A That?s
all I talked to.
Q Did
you ever talk to Buck
Weaver about it?
A No,
sir, I never talked to Buck
Weaver, never talked very much.
Q Did
you know the time Buck was in on the deal?
A They
told me he was; he never told me himself.
Q Who
told you?
A Chick
told me.
Q Did
Mrs. Jackson ever talk to Mrs. Weaver about
it that you know of?
A No,
sir, not that I know of; no, sir.
Q Is
Mrs. Jackson a friend of Mrs. Weaver?s,
and did they chum together frequently ? or
did they?
A They
are all chummy there on the ball ground,
sit together there on the stand, most all
the ball players? wives sit together.
Q Who
did Mrs. Jackson sit with most?
A Mrs.
Williams and her sit together.
Q Did
Mrs. Jackson talk to Mrs. Williams about
it?
A Not
that I know of.
Q Did
Mrs. Williams ever talk to Mrs. Jackson
about it?
A I
don?t know, they never talked when I was
around, I don?t know what they did when
I wasn?t around.
Q Go
back to Attel and Burns, just what do you
know about them?
A All
I know is what Gandil told me over there,
I talked to Bill myself later.
Q What
did you talk to Burns later?
A It
was the day the World?s Series started.
Q What
did you say to him and what did he say to
you?
A I
met him in the lobby of the hotel, we sat
there; I can?t remember the name of the
hotel.
Q Sinton
Hotel?
A Sinton
Hotel, yes.
Q That
is in Cincinnati?
A Yes.
I said, ?How is everything??
Q What
did he say?
A He
said, ?Everything is fine.?
Q Then
what happened?
A He
told me about this stuff and I didn?t know
so much, I hadn?t been around and I didn?t
know so much. He said, ?Where is Chick??
I said, ?I don?t know.? He walked
away from me. I didn?t know enough
to talk to him about what they were going
to plan or what they had planned, I wouldn?t
know it if I had seen him, I only knew what
I had been told, that?s all I knew.
Q Who
was the third party in with Burns and Attel?
A I
don?t know their names, I know there was
three names.
THE
FOREMAN:
Q What
made you think that Gandil was double-crossing
you, rather than Attel and Burns?
A What
made think it was, Gandil going out on the
coast, so I was told, I was surmising what
I heard, they came back and told me he had
a summer home, big automobile, doesn?t do
a lick of work; I know I can?t do that way.
MR.
REPLOGLE:
Q In
other words, if he double crossed you fellows
he couldn?t come back and face them, and
he plenty of money to stay out there. It
wasn?t at the time that you thought Gandil
was double crossing you, you thought Gandil
was telling the truth, is that right?
A No,
I told Williams after the first day it was
a crooked deal all the way through, Gandil
was not on the square with us.
Q Had
you ever played crooked baseball before
this?
A No,
sir, I never had.
Q Did
anybody ever approach you to throw a game
before this?
A No,
sir, never did.
Q Did
anybody approach you to throw a game since
that time, to throw the World?s Series?
A No,
sir.
Q Do
you have any suspicion about the White Sox,
any of the players throw any of the games
this summer?
A Well,
there have been some funny looking games,
runs, I could have just my own belief about
it, I wouldn?t accuse the men.
Q Where
at?
A A
couple in New York, this last Eastern trip,
looked bad, but I couldn?t come out and
open and bold and accuse anybody of throwing
those games.
Q Who
pitched?
A Williams
got one awful beating up there, 25 to something
there.
Q Who
else?
A I
don?t remember whether Cicotte started the
game there or not.
Q Do
you remember the last series you played
in Boston? Last three straight games,
did any of those games look suspicious to
you?
A There
was a lot of funny pitching, lot of walking.
Q Who
was pitching those games?
A Kerr
and Williams and Cicotte.
Q Was
Kerr in on this in any way, do you think?
A I
don?t think so.
Q Were
any of the other six players in it except
the ones we have mentioned?
A Not
to my knowledge.
Q Do
you remember the Washington Series here
the last time Washington played here, that
you lost three straight games?
A No,
sir.
Q Did
any of those games look suspicious to you?
A I
didn?t pay any attention to them, looking
for errors, and that, I was out trying to
beat them.
Q Was
anything whispered around the club that
you know of, that you should beat New York
and then drop these games for those other
teams so that Cleveland would win?
A No,
sir, I never heard that.
Q Did
you hear anything in your ball team to the
effect that if the White Sox would take
second place and would get part of the World?s
Series money because you won second place
in the pennant race and then get the City
Series money, that you would make more money
than if you won the pennant and won the
World?s Series?
A No,
sir.
Q Did
any of the players ever tell you that?
A No,
sir, never told me that.
Q Did
that ever occur to you, yourself?
A No
sir. I wanted to win, this year, above
all times.
Q Why?
A Because
? I wanted to get in there and try and beat
some National League club to death, that?s
what I wanted to do.
Q You
didn?t want to do that so bad last year,
did you?
A Well,
down in my heart I did, yes.
Q Did
you hear any of the players that mentioned
that proposition to you that I have just
mentioned?
A No,
not to me, no, sir; they have not.
Q Did
you write and ask him for the other $15,000?
A No,
sir.
Q Why
didn?t you?
A I
didn?t think it would do any good, I didn?t
pay any attention to that.
Q Did
you ever talk to Claude
Williams about it since the series?
A We
have talked about it once or twice, yes.
Q When?
A Sometime
this summer, I don?t remember whom it was.
Q In
what city, if you can recall?
A I
think it was here, in Chicago.
Q Where
in Chicago, at the ballpark?
A No,
we were out riding in his car.
Q What
did you say to him and what did he say to
you?
A We
were just talking about how funny it looked
that Gandil didn?t come back, and he must
have made an awful lot out of it, crossed
up the boys. We both decided he crssed
them up.
Q You
think now Williams may have crossed you,
too?
A Well,
dealing with crooks, you know, you get croked
every way. This is my first experience
and last.
Q Where
else did you talk to Williams, outside of
the time you were out riding in his car?
A Somewhere
we were at, I believe in Washington.
Q When
was that?
A That
was this summer, I think.
Q How
long ago?
A I
think it was the second Eastern trip.
Q What
did you say to him at that time, and what
did he say to you?
A We
just brought up the World?s Series, I told
him what a damned fool I though I was, and
he was of the same opinion, so we just let
it go at that.
Q Does
your contract with the Sox Baseball team
call for $6,000?
A $8,000.
Q What
party of the money did you get when you
were sold by Cleveland to Comiskey?
A I
think they gave me $1,000 out of the sale.
Q That?s
all you got out of it, just $1,000?
A Yes.
Q Do
you know how much Mr. Comiskey paid the
Cleveland Club for you?
A I
do not, no, sir.
Q You
knew it was a big sum of money, did you?
A So
they said.
Q You
were satisfied with $8,000 a year, were
you?
A That?s
all I could get out of them.
Q Did
you get $8,000 in 1919?
A No,
sir.
Q What
did you get in that year, that was last
year?
A I
believe they gave me $6,000, last year.
Q That
is for the season, not for the year?
A Yes,
just the playing season, yes, sir.
Q That
also includes all your expenses on the trips,
doesn?t it?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Railroad
fare, board, room end so forth?
A Railroad,
fare, room and board.
Q You
were pretty well satisfied with that, weren?t
you?
A They
wouldn?t give you any more, that?s all you
could get. I was pretty lucky to get
a contract like that with him when I came
over here.
Q What
were you getting with Cleveland?
A I
was getting six the last year, and I had
been in that automobile wreck, and it looked
like I was through as a ball player.
Q That automobile wreck in Cleveland?
A Yes; I had my leg all tore up, my knee cap came out, it looked like I would be through as a ball player.
Q $6,000 is the most you ever got until this year, is that right?
(NO ANSWER)
Q Did you ever talk to any of the other men about this, now, that I have not asked you about?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know anything more about it than I have asked you?
A No, sir, I don?t believe I do.
Q Can you think of anything else of importance that I have not asked you?
A This other fellow, if I could think of his name, I can?t think of his name.
Q Did Cicotte ever tell you who paid him the money?
A He told me about somebody paying him money, yes; but I don?t know their names, never did know any of their names, except Bill Burns and Abe Attell, that?s the only two names that I know. I did not attend the meetings.
Q You say Williams gave you your money; what ball player paid Cicotte his money?
A These gamblers paid him, I think, all along, from what I learn.
Q Did Williams ever tell you who paid him?
A Never did.
Q Did you ever ask Williams where he got this $5,000?
A Yes.
Q What did he say?
A Up at Gandil?s apartment, he said.
Q Have you ever talked to Burns since the World?s Series?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know where he lives, where he is?
A No, sir.
Q You talked to Gideon this summer?
A Yes; ?Hello, how are you?? and something like that.
Q Do you now whether or not Gideon is in on the deal?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Do you think he was?
(NO ANSWER)
Q Does Williams know where you are now?
A I don?t think so.
MR. REPLOCLE: It is an off day, no game today
(Whereupon the Grand Jury adjourned to Wednesday,
September 29, 1920, at 9:30 o?clock A.M.)
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